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low oil pressure / oil light on

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low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:33 pm

Hi,
I have used this forum to find out many things about (and fix) my vehicle, however it has come time when i have to ask a question. (have been through the other posts)

This is about low oil pressure on start-up, and while running the engine. Suspect it is to do with the oil pump.
Engine: 4JB1T, bighorn.

The story:
Firstly, I run waste vegetable oil (WVO), which gets past the rings in my engine and into the sump oil. The effect of this is that the sump oil level rises, and when the engine gets very hot, the sump oil becomes thick & gooey.
I believe the problem started here.
- After having gone 4x4ing with a friend up some long steep hills (about 6 months ago), the engine temp gauge was 3/4 the way up when arriving at the top. When i next used the vehicle, i noticed that the oil pressure stayed around the '4Kg/cm^2' mark, which it doesn't usually do unless the engine is cold. I did about 200km with the engine like this.
- To rectify this problem, i did an oil change with valvoline 20W40 (stuff i usually use with no problems), and replaced the oil filter with a ryco oil filter. The oil taken out of the engine was extreemly thick and gooey (the last of the stuff that came out was like maple syrup - poor engine :( ).
- After this oil change, I was able to hear a funny faint 'clicking' sound from the front of the engine (if you could imagine, sounds a bit like alternator brushes jamming against a part of the alternator while moving). Audible when the engine was cold, and faded away after 20 seconds of having the engine on. Oil pressure appeared to be lower than normal, however no big noticeable difference on the pressure gauge.
- Another 2,000km, noise was still there. During this time on a trip away, rocker cover came loose, oil went everywhere, used cheap warehouse oil for the rest of trip. Went through 16L of red-stamp oil on trip (time did not permit to fix problem at the time). Fixed rocker cover. cheap oil still in. About another 1,000Km later, noticing oil pressure is lower than normal (i.e. around 2Kg/Cm^2) when driving at normal temperatures. Taking longer for the oil light to go off when engine started (i.e. 3 seconds).
- Got 4x4 stuck on a hill for several days (steep gradient). When i went to start it, the oil light stayed on for about 15seconds (had 3 attempts starting, put more oil in top of engine, 3rd time oil light finally went out after a while)
- Now noticing whenever i start engine cold, oil light stays on for 10 seconds or so, worse when very cold (20-30 sec), so did oil change (to 20W50) & oil filter change to Fram filter, still no difference.

Symptoms:
- When engine is cold, a ticking sound can be heard from front of engine (close to where oil pump is), and continues until oil pressure is there.
- Oil pressure is non-existent for first 20-30 seconds when cold (i.e. red oil press light stays on).

- After first 30 seconds, oil light goes off, pressure stays low (i.e. about 0.25Kg/Cm^2) until oil gets warmer, then when at warm temperature the oil pressure shows about 2Kg/Cm^2.
If i try to rev the engine when cold, oil pressure drops back down and oil light comes on.
If i rev the engine when luke-warm(medium?), pressure will drop to about 1Kg/Cm^2 & no oil light comes on.
When engine is at driving temp (slightly hotter than normal temp, when driving up long hills) the oil pressure will drop back to 1Kg/Cm^2 until engine becomes colder because of driving down long hills (assume because the oil is hotter & thinner).
- when the engine is warm, it takes significantly less time for the oil light to go out (0.5 - 3 sec), unless engine has been left for some time (3 hrs or so)


Conclusions:
- oil pressure gauge and oil light not faulty (as i believe that they are independent sensors, and correlate)
- changing oil makes no difference, filter type (ryco, Fram) makes no difference
- engine temperature changes viscosity of oil, thus changes pressure of oil from oil pump
- abnormal conditions have occurred due to using different fuel type (my fault :oops: )


Would like to know, would it be the oil pump, pressure relief valves, or something else?
I know that replacing the oil pump is a big job/messy (i.e. front diff off, sump off, timing belt off, ...). Are the pressure relief valves behind the oil filter (as i haven't checked these yet)?

Thanks for reading my short novel, any help or suggestions would be appreciated,
Nick
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby geeves » Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:35 pm

Pressure relief valve is in the pump. Only one way to get to it. It might be sticking but even that should be worse hot. My thought would be the strainer on the oil pickup. An oil flushing compound might clear it but Im not holding much hope. How did enough vegi oil get past the rings to do this? Only way I can see is if you have a gear drive motor and the front seal on the injector pump is leaking.
Sanding your knuckles before starting work can help. That way you cant skin them
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:32 pm

mmm...

I tried doing an oil flush, as described on one of these threads by mixing some diesel and cheap oil together & running the engine for several minutes, however there was no real difference after flushing it out & putting normal oil in. - did note that there was some sediment build up on top of the oil-drain bolt before flush.

I thought about the strainer too, don't know how fine it is, but i would have thought that as the oil got hotter, it would pass through the strainer easier (which when the oil gets really hot, the oil pressure goes back down a bit, so prob not strainer?).

By gear drive motor, i assume all the timing and injection pump is run off a gear? I have had the timing belt replaced, so thought that my model of engine was not gear-driven, + i had the injector pump re-done about a year ago (the full deal where they pull it out and charge you an arm & leg). Also there is a plastic cover in front of the timing belt (thought there would be a metal one was for gear-driven).

- don't know how that much veg oil gets past the rings, but usually seems to go up by about 1cm above the full mark on the dipstick by the time an oil change is due (5,000km). There is some blow-by from the oil cap too. It doesn't seem to happen as much on diesel.

- how long does it take to get to the oil pump to fix it?
- Also assume that the main crank bolt on front of engine has to come off?

Thanks for the reply geeves, much appreciate any advice.
(as you can probably tell, i am not a mechanic, but i am learning bit by bit)
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby geeves » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:05 pm

might have to wait for wbskis thougts on this. Hes our vegy oil expert
Sanding your knuckles before starting work can help. That way you cant skin them
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:31 pm

ok.

Just had another look at the engine manual, looks like oil pump may be easier to get at than first anticipated. Do i only have to take the sump off to get at it? (manual is not that clear)
Or are there other things in the way?

Thanks,
Nick.
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby wbski007 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:38 am

I can't see any way veggey oil is going past your rings and into your pan, if your rings were that bad the motor would be smoking like crazy, plus you wouuld have to be over fueled to the point you'ed be blowing black smoke everywhere, like Geeves said if you have a gear driven IP then the seal could leak and fuel could enter the pan that way, but you say that you had your timing belt changed so that leaves out the fuel entering pan via IP. Something else is going on somewhere, what I have no idea, what kind of mix are you running with the WVO?? are you filtering it and then adding a bit of diesel to thin it? There is no way that I can see that running veggy oil can effect the oil pressure!!
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:43 am

Hi,
I am running a mix of 20% diesel, 80% WVO. I don't know how it gets in there either, but ends up being about 1cm higher on the dipstick at the end of 5,000kms, i'm not too fussed about this, i just have to keep an eye on the level.
- motor does not smoke on diesel (WVO smokes (...a lot when cold))
- could it be the resulting ash from the engine? (i.e. the engine oil usually has a distinctive WVO smell, and if i thin it out with diesel, i can see ash particles in it).
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby wbski007 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:01 am

Your mix sounds right, that's the same as I use, mine also smokes when cold using wvo, that's par for the course, they all will, do you have any type of heater built in to lines to heat your vo before it enters the injection pump? A small amount of vo entering your oil will not hurt the motor, in fact it will clean some of the sluge build up out, but how its entering yours is a compleat misterey to me.I
I have two fuel tanks, one for diesel and the other for wvo and diesel mix, before shuting down at the end of the day I switch to strait diesel, so in the morning it starts on that, then after the motor warms up I switch to the wvo tank for the rest of the day. Also I have a heated fuel line as wvo burns much better when it enters the motor at 160F or better, being thicker than diesel, the hotter it is entering the motor the better. My fuel line from my tank to the motor is made up of a lenth of heater hose with a copper 3/8th inch line inside, I made up myself, the heater hose with the fuel line inside is tyed into the heater hose on the motor so it heats my fuel to around 180F, which is good. My oil never smells like wvo and has no type of ash particals at all, even after 3,000 miles, that's when I change it. I've put over 30,000 miles on my 2.5 using wvo with no problems. Wish I could be more help. How the wvo is getting into the pan has me stumped!!
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:34 am

Sounds like you have a good set-up.
Like you, i have two fuel tanks set up. the normal one under the vehicle is for diesel, and a 90L tank in the boot area for WVO.
Yes, have 3 heating systems that i have built and installed, firstly an electric glow-plug heater next to the fuel tank in-line with the fuel hose, second is a heat exchanger connected to the top of the radiator, and thirdly another electric glow-plug heater before the 3-way solenoid valve (just before the injector pump). I run this at about 40-50C (100 - 120F). The only problem i have is filtering the oil, always has been a real hassle, so i purchased two house water filters & stuck a 10 & 1 micron filter in each housing, currently testing.
Have been running the WVO for about 1&1/2 years, done a bit over 15,000km on it (only really use the vehicle for long trips).

Here's my setup, the oil refinery:
1 IMG_5246 - refinery.jpg


The rear 90L fuel tank & new fuel filtering system:
2 IMG_6983 - rear fuel tank and filters2.jpg


The engine bay, second alternator is to run lights and fuel heating system. Heat exchanger is to the right (raises temp by 10C).
Second alt is just 60A, but both together = 110A. I didn't upgrade the original alternator because i am cheap :lol: (was only $45 for the second alt + bracket i found & grided up to fit in):
3a IMG_6976 - 2nd_alt and ht exchngr.jpg


Second view of heat exchanger:
3b IMG_6979 - heat exchanger.jpg


I installed two 3-way valves (one for input, other for return), + the last fuel filter for WVO before the injector pump:
4 IMG_6977 - valves and front filter.jpg


This is one of the two glow-plug heaters that i have made up, there is a thermistor drilled into the T-piece, & sends the temperature to the control system.
5 IMG_6978 - glow plug heater.jpg


This is the fuel control system, it controls the two 3-way valves, pump, and both heaters, + displays the info on the LCD screen.
Also, i have made a circuit to show fuel level (right):
6 IMG_6981 - control sys.jpg


This is some of my messy wiring for the control system:
7 IMG_4393 - control sys circuit.jpg





Aside from this, in order to fix my oil pressure problem, i would like to know if anyone has removed the sump oil pump before?
and what do i need to remove to get at the pump?

Thanks,
Nick.
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby turnturn » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:34 pm

Not sure about the Bighorn, but you can't get the sump out of a Mu with the engine in place.
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby wbski007 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:19 am

Nick, you have quite the setup there, you filter yours alot better than mine, I have to do my filtering on the road, I use a Racor 2 micron as my final filter, are you sure you oil gauge is reading rite, stupid question I know but had to ask? if you did get some vo in your oil, ( how I don't know) it could have loosened up some sluge and now its clogging the oil screen on the pump, just a guess, good luck
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:42 am

I am fairly sure that my oil gauge is reading correctly, as the first time the red oil light was on & reading no pressure, i gave my engine a bit of a rev to see if that would help the pickup, and i could hear the turbo start to screech due to lack of oil. I should probably take the sensors out & check them anyway.

My friend is going to help me next week, we will try to remove the sump, check the pickup screen, and take it the pump out. Hopefully i don't have to take the engine out (like turnturn says)!
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:27 pm

ok, i am now very oily :mrgreen: and so is my camera.

firstly, I pulled the relief valve from next to the oil filter out, looked fine & not seized/stuck when pushed the valve down with screw driver.

So, secondly, i drained the oil from sump & took the oil pan off (so many bolts to undo!). I found the strainer & oil pump there.
I took the strainer off, blew through it & seems fine.
I then attempted to undo the bottom of the oil pump, only to find out that one of the bolts hits the sump, preventing me from checking the gears :(

The two bolts to undo the oil pump are not easy to get at (at least one of them is not easy), so seems as though the whole sump has to come off.
The idea that i have is that i will undo all the bolts for the sump & move the cover by about 10mm so i can undo the other oil pump bolt, & possibly replace with one from a wrecker. (really don't want to take the entire sump off, as it looks as though the diff may have to move out of the way?)

anyhow, here are the pics:

Relief valve under oil filter:
1 - IMG_6988 - relief valve (next to oil filter).jpg



Undone oil pan:
2 - oil pan out .jpg



Sludge build-up over the 20 years that the truck has been alive:
3 - IMG 7000 - sludge over 20 years.jpg



under the oil pan, the oil pump:
4 - IMG_6999 - oil pump.jpg



The oil strainer (top side), not blocked but looks that way:
5 - IMG_7009 - strainer other side.jpg



oh yeah, thought i may add, a new oil pump from Holden is worth $561.42 + gst, or each new gear is $170 + gst, ouch! :shock:
(part no. for pump is 8970331743)
Not paying that! will probably see Gavin just out of Chch & see if i can get one cheap from a dead engine.
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby wbski007 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:49 am

You might try cleaning the old one then hook a power drill to it, stick the sump in some oil and see if it pumps ok, good luck
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1949 Dodge 2 1/2 ton pumper fire truck, 15,000 original miles, with a 1991 Cummins 5.9 diesel, turned up fuel, 5 speed trans, two speed rear, also added P/S, P/B.

Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:54 am

funny that, i was thinking exactly the same thing before i went to bed last night!
just have to get it out, hopefully tonight... thanks.
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:04 pm

Problem fixed, normal pressure now. Baz (my truck) is happy! :D (if there was a smilie with a party hat on, i would choose it)


You were right Wayne & Geeves, there was sludge build up on the oil screen.

My first test was blowing through the opening, initially seemed ok.
I then went back today to see how to take the pump out, turns out that i would have to unbolt the entire sump, which i really did not want to do, plus a $500 pump shouldn't break down that easily (and no one on this forum seems to have any problems with the oil pump it's self), so i poked my finger into the strainer & pulled out some sludge, got my air compressor & blew out some more, cleaned it with diesel, & continued poking around the inside of the strainer for the next 40mins till the sludge was all out.
Before cleaning the sludge out, the diesel i poured into the strainer took a long time to come out.
After cleaning, the diesel poured in to it came straight out of the other side.

All the sludge went to one side of the strainer & blocked the outlet port.

This is how i think it was blocked:
when i was 4x4ing & had to leave my truck on the steep angle for a few days, the sludge slid toward the strainer. When i went back to start the vehicle, the oil pump had sucked the sludge up & took a long time for the pump to suck enough oil to create adequate pressure in the engine. The sludge stayed there till now (when i fixed it).


Anyhow, it is all cleaned out, oil pan was given a polish-up (so clean that i would even bake a cake in it :idea: ), and put back together. I did however snap one of the many bolts holding the oil pan on, but doesn't seem to leak.

Here are a few pics:

This is the strainer, you can see some blockage:
1 - IMG_7035 - strainer mesh.jpg


slightly better photo of the sludge (after my cleaning efforts - very hard to get it all out, & supercheap don't carry new ones)
2 - IMG_7036 - strainer mesh close up.jpg


This is a better shot of the oil pump, you can see hidden just to the left & above of the oil outlet pipe is a bolt, which i would have to get to in order to undo the pump. The second one is near impossible to get at from this angle.
3 - IMG_7042 - oil pump without strainer.jpg


Now with the strainer on, all clean and shiny:
4 - IMG_7043 - oil pump in sump with cleaned strainer on.jpg


The now clean and shiny oil pan, reminds me of a baking dish, i could make an oil-pan shaped cake! ;)
5 - IMG_7047 - shiny clean oil pan.jpg


And, the thing that i am happiest about, the oil pressure gauge responds normally!!! YAY, :D :D :D so happy that it was only the strainer!!!
6 - IMG_7049 - oil gauge correct.jpg



Hopefully i didn't damage the engine too much running on low oil pressure, but turns out that the problem was more simple than i originally thought. It also explains the funny noises when engine started, getting progressively longer, also the viscosity problems (i.e. cold = low pressure + taking long time, warm = 2kg/cm2, very hot = 1kg/cm2 (as too thin to pressurise)).

So, thanks for your ongoing support Wayne, and input from others ;)


Next, to do a few more mods to the vehicle...
* air locker (rear)
* up the turbo (but get boost & EGT gauges first!)
* hack the transmission controller & turn it into a manual automatic :geek:
* get larger exhaust (2.5") + low restriction muffler
* belt-driven air compressor, but have to figure out where to stick it in the engine bay, as 2nd alternator has taken place of A/C unit.
* possible lift

...all in good time...
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby Captcol » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:48 am

hack the transmission controller you say ... intriguing

Glad you got the rest sorted tho, and that you didn't have to spend mega bucks to do it
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Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby wbski007 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:41 am

Yippie ki yeah, good going Nick, I didn't think there could be to much more wrong with the pump that a good cleaning wouldn't fix, there built pretty tough, by the way I'm very impressed with your veggie oil setup, good going mate, happy trails
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Country: USA
City: Mary Esther
Vehicle: 1998 Isuzu Rodeo,with a 2001,2.5 turbo diesel motor,5 speed,inter-cooler,turned up fuel,adjusted waste gate for 14 psi of boost,air bags under front end with torsion bars ,2.5 exhaust straight thru sidepipe no muffler.
1949 Dodge 2 1/2 ton pumper fire truck, 15,000 original miles, with a 1991 Cummins 5.9 diesel, turned up fuel, 5 speed trans, two speed rear, also added P/S, P/B.

Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby electrifying » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:40 pm

Re Captcol:
I have got a wiring diagram somewhere for my auto transmission, just requires me to get an Arduino board (saves me soldering many components), & program it correctly. Just hope i don't get it wrong, as i don't want to stuff the transmission.
Basically want the locking part of the transmission to engage in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears at lower RPM, and for me to up/down change at my own will (i.e. 4th engages at 54km/hr, would like it to engage earlier, so i will install gear up/down buttons).
So it's not as much of a 'hack the controller' as it is a 'build a new transmission controller' type of project. Should be fun to do over the summer 8-) .

yeah, luckily i didn't have to spend anything on the vehicle, except for new oil. will change oil filter later as it's only done 300km so far.


Re Wayne:
Hopefully i won't have to open it up for another 10 years or so for cleaning.
Vege oil setup still has a bit more work, air is getting in to fuel lines, think it is the new filter housings with pressure release valve on outside letting air in.

Has taken many late nights, and hours of figuring stuff out, but i enjoy having something to smoke the neighbours out on a cold morning. hahaha :twisted:

Has cost me too much in WVO plumbing parts for the engine to fail now! it still has to do another 15-20,000 km to pay it's self back.
Did you have any posts of your WVO system? If so, i will check them out some time.



Thanks for all the support,
Nick.
bighorn = fun
If you see a bighorn, and the exhaust smells of BBQ or fish & chips, it's probably me
Nick
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electrifying
Isuzu Junior
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:11 pm
Location: Palmerston North
Age: 25
Country: New Zealand
City: Palmerston North
Vehicle: Isuzu Bighorn, 2.8TD with inter-cooler. 4JB1T. 1991. Runs on vege oil. has two alternators. Now has a diff air locker, and snorkel.

Re: low oil pressure / oil light on

Postby wbski007 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:11 am

Nick A little story on the air in the lines, it drove me crazy for a long time, I couldn't figure out why I was loosing power at certin times, I got so desperat that I added a piece of clear plastic to my fuel line,so I could see what the hell was going on, I noticed it was on cooler days that I lost some of my power and sure enough I noticed air bubbles in the fuel, when I switched back to diesel the air would dissapear, for some reason known only to God, air will form in the lines if your oil is a little to thick, I thought I could stop it by double clamping all my lines, but with no luck, then I read that there is no way to stop it, if your fuel is two thick, even strait diesel will form air in the lines if it gets cold enough, so you might try thinning your oil with a little more diesel, or getting it warmer so its thinner, just thought I'd pass it along to you so you did't have to go through what I did, it drove me nuts. Happy trails
I live in my own little world, but its OK they know me here.
Happy Trails, Wayne
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wbski007
Isuzu Guru
 
Posts: 649
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:04 am
Location: Mary Esther,Florida
Age: 67
Country: USA
City: Mary Esther
Vehicle: 1998 Isuzu Rodeo,with a 2001,2.5 turbo diesel motor,5 speed,inter-cooler,turned up fuel,adjusted waste gate for 14 psi of boost,air bags under front end with torsion bars ,2.5 exhaust straight thru sidepipe no muffler.
1949 Dodge 2 1/2 ton pumper fire truck, 15,000 original miles, with a 1991 Cummins 5.9 diesel, turned up fuel, 5 speed trans, two speed rear, also added P/S, P/B.

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